Gotta say I loved the service from MNTTBX with the Bazzaz I started with, if you are just after a basic set up Greg and the guys can supply a Bazzaz ready to run with the mods you are running. As a cheap easy solution it's hard to beat, especially as if you ask nicely when you purchase further mods they can usually supply a new suitable map. No dyno, no AFM.



Not for everybody but as a cheap and simple solution it's hard to beat

 

Funny thread. Phantomx2k is right, you'll get a wee bit hp without a tuner.

What nobody is talking in this thread is that after a few thousand miles with a full exhaust, intake and no tuner, your valves are roasted from running too lean. Long term it's just not good for the bike.

I've had a thermal imaging camera I've borrowed from work. Years back when I had to take it to a job site I brought it home and played with it. I've had the benefit of seeing how hot a bike runs at various stages of build - stock, then exhaust and intake with no tuner, then with tuner and fully tuned.

If you guys visually saw how hot a bike ran without a tuner, you wouldn't want to do it. I'm not talking about just the exhaust pipe, the whole head.

 

Thanks, that makes more sense.



I read "If you only want cool looks and more noise, with potentially a slight decrease in power, you don't need a tuner."


And if I take that for what it is, it means they don't do anything and add zero or negative HP.

 

So if one buys a Chimera Intake and a Yoshi Exhaust for their Z125, they will get absolutely zero increase in power?

 

I'm going only by seeing other post, Not actual experience.

For what I've seen... 100% of the time when adding both intake and a Yosh or any "quality" exhaust there is a performance gain for 1/2 to 1hp.

Is a tuner needed ...

Yes ... if for some reason your ECU doesnt correct for the change
Typically just a intake and exhaust the ECU will correct itself good enough to run without a noticeable bad performance or to lean condition
.
Yes ... if you want even better gains from the intake and exhaust and seeing up to another 1/2hp when set up properly
.
Only time I see the yosh and intake Not Adding HP is when Fuel controllers are added and they are not set up properly

.

 

Kimester399 post is where a lot of us are at ... Myself included

When buying a exhaust and intake for Maximum Performance ?
Then yes, Plus we will probably be adding more mod's later and anything more than a exhaust and intake will require a Tuner
Or ...
When buying them for the Basic Performance gains and the sound and looks that most all people do to a new bike, then no.

No Shame in that ... I always had a ace of spades playing card close-pinned to my forks on my bicycle and there were no performance gains, just more noise

The aftermarket tuners are a big issue for those of us that have never used one for the exact reason Kimester399 states

"If I don't have to run one or if there is a simple one that doesn't require a Dyno or computer genius"

... Myself Included . Being in the Basic, Sound, Looks category

But we do need it to run without any noticeable bad side effects.
The stock ECU may not compensate for some exhaust and intake combinations but there are the post # 2 possible solutions or reduce some of the air flow or exhaust with a better baffle taking it back closer to the stock condition per say, until the noticeable bad side effects go away. Or worse try a different exhaust and/or Intake

Also the cost is also quite substantial for most of us, I'm seeing over half the members here buying the lower cost exhaust than the higher cost ones. and the tuners can be more expensive than the exhaust and intake

We all have different financial resources and modification priority's as well as Opinion's

And this is just mine along with post # 2

 

I don't want to drag this out the entire point was be carful what you say, if anything the first reply I quoted was kinda condescending from a vendor "sure do that if you want to noise and no power" is essentially what it said I thought that was kinda not cool and I have a right to that opinion.

As for my experience on the matter, I've owned over 50 motorcycles in my life, I own 7 currently, I've modded and wrenched on every single one of them for the past 30+ years from Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, BMW, Ducati, etc. i do my own mods myself, testing and dyno's and spend tons of money in the process testing tons of combinations to know what should work and most likely what won't. I'm also an engineer by trade so it's how my brain works. I'm hesitant to take anyone's word (been burned by that BS before) and I test it myself.

I currently have 2 Z125's and 2 Honda Monkey 125's that I'm also working on and testing out and all with different components, again to see what works and what doesn't work and have done real world testing side by (since I have 2 it makes it easier) and with these little bikes little gains show up pretty easy. I'm also trying different parts on each to see how well the do or don't respond. I may not be a vendor but I have a lot of experience on the subject at hand.

Those YouTube videos are from a pretty respected source and used as a reference to say "Yea these mods do work on this bike and here some samples of some gains we've seen". There are plenty more out there. The videos are evidence as you would provide with anything else your attempting to prove a point on and they are from a respected source not Johnny Hicksville with a couple squirrels and a paint can going look my dyno gave me 50hp from my exhaust!

For the OP: Sorry we got off topic mate...
Engines need 2 things to work more effectively and more efficiently. They need Air, Fuel and a way to get it out via exhaust. When you do the right things and make those better you get performance. In that regard it's a simple formula. When you remove a factory restrictive exhaust setup it can breath easier and run better. Most decent exhaust systems available will accomplish this. Tuning will absolutely make it better then just the exhaust alone or with any other mods in conjunction. As @mnnthbx said you should be safe however there is always a chance that something goes wrong. A tuner will reduce that chance. Me personally I'm running one tuned and one not tuned with intake and exhaust and so far everything looks good, plugs, oil, temps, etc. The tuned bike pulls a little harder and idles better (thanks to my Bazzaz which I got from @mnnthbx and their tune) and the non tuned one definitely out runs stock easily.

There I think that puts us back on topic...

 

@Phantomx2k I respect your opinion. I disagree with the unfounded & condescending way your are presenting it.

I experience firsthand "I bought a pipe and now my bike doesn't run right" kind of stuff EVERY DAY! Yes I work at a dealership with a dyno and all the latest dynojet software and sensors. How do you think people in the industry feel about the regurgitated internet vomit as a reason the customers bike doesn't run properly? "But a guy on the forum said I don't need a tuner".

You're **** right "the opinion of a manufacturer or dealer hold's a lot of weight". Because WE are the ones that are dealing with either satisfied or unsatisfied customers long after you forgot about this thread. Experience and reputation should trump all yet the loudmouth gets to hijack the thread.

What is your experience and why should we believe what you say? There should be more to your argument than someone else's youtube videos that don't actually prove your point.

For the record I do not speak for nor am I associated with MNNTHBX. Just someone that works in the industry (since 2009), rides (since 1983), races (since 2001), wrenches the entire time, and is tired of people spewing incorrect garbage on forums.

Buy a tuner, don't buy a tuner, fill your boots.
But "If you only want cool looks and more noise, with potentially a slight decrease in power, you don't need a tuner" is very true and I will stand behind that.

 

1 to 1.5 HP gain is actually pretty big for these little motors. Though not sure if the dyno was really accurate at these tiny levels. Most of the time a 1 HP difference is considered within the window of accuracy. Kind of like weight scales. You can get one that weighs up to 1 pound that will have sub-ounce accuracy, but once you get up to 80 pound range, you are lucky to get half pound accuracy. I might be wrong though.

 

If you only want cool looks and more noise, with potentially a slight decrease in power, you don't need a tuner. Plenty of people go this way, and while you won't get any real results, your bike won't instantly explode. If you want to actually achieve the performance the intake and exhaust were intended to provide, for sure, you want a tuner. Contact us anytime with questions. We have a proven track record of budget minded, reliable packages.

 

I would completely disagree with that statement. there are proven videos and dyno charts showing absolute power gains over and over with intake and exhaust in different combinations with no tuner across multiple models of 125's not just Kawasaki. I get that your a vendor and trying to sell product but that's just an incorrect statement, as folks that are supposed to be the experts in this area to make that kind of statement is just shameful.

Here is a stock Z with Yosh exhaust dyno showing a .5hp gain (5%) pretty decent with no tuner:

Here is that same bike with the DCR cam installed with No tuner, another .5hp gain:

And finally here it is with intake/exhaust/cam/Tune - another .5hp gain and the tuner helped under the curve which is important:

This is just a guy that owns a Z and did a VLOG with Intake and Exhaust and he raved about it. At 9:00 mark you can see he hit 63mph with the combo and at one point was doing 60mph uphill. So it does make a difference

So a more correct professional response might have been something like: yes you can make power with intake and exhaust but no tune, probably about 1hp more over all which is over a 10% gain and is pretty good. To make the best use of and maximize the potential from those mods a tuner is recommended as it will add about another .5hp and add some power/tq under the curve.

I have two Z's one with intake/exhaust and one with intake/exhaust and bazazz. The tune does help some I don't notice a drastic difference between the two bikes but it does wake the bike up considerably with just intake and exhaust.

 

Check out this Thread ,
https://www.z125owners.com/forum/engines-discussions/15405-efie-experiences.html

But you dont have to have a tuner
https://www.z125owners.com/forum/engines-discussions/15405-efie-experiences-5.html#post122949

For bottom line Scroll down to

Thoughts

For stock bike without fuel controller and adding intake and exhaust, it looks generally safe, with the following caveat: