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EFIE Experiences

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41K views 63 replies 10 participants last post by  MrEvilpirate  
M
#1 ·
I'm looking for them. Found a couple posts here but no real information.

What I'm wondering is has anyone installed this and wide banded the bike before and after.

Can this compensate for intake and a pipe? The price is right at 30 bucks. I understand you need to use a wideband o2 to tune it. I have no problem with that for the cost savings.

Also I hear people talking about wiring it backwards. Is it not adjustable in both directions, or can it only richen or only lean depending on the installation? Can you adjust at different points or is it an overall AFR shift (standard map universally richened or leaned, depending on how it is wired).

Someone must be using one of these things.... Thanks.

Man, bike has been in dealer for tranny/clutch issues for a week, I can't stop thinking about tuning it lol.
 
Discussion starter · #2 ·
I've answered some of my own questions.

The system adjusts voltage across the board. You set in mA how much you want to increase/decrease. That change is applied to the entire fuel map. A lot of grom guys run this to compensate for exhaust and intake. I'm going to do it. Need to weld a bung on my stock exhaust for my wide band, will log before and after installing the EFIE. This seems like a good option for guys who want to richen up the stock lean AFR and add a pipe and intake.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wX0fOAMqEmYk6jgRK37Qc4apUxoLQw5pchcSt5krOFA/edit


Check out post 88:
https://www.hondagrom.net/forums/13-grom-performance/3113-o2-sensor-grom-piggyback-tuners-9.html
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
No one is running this? It seems like an awesome option for guys who just want a pipe and intake. I ordered one. No idea when it shows. Would love to talk to someone who has installed on a Z I know you're out there!!!
 
Discussion starter · #6 · (Edited)
The EFIE came today. Shipping estimate was 6 weeks but it took 6 days.

Here are some pics, it is wrapped up in something that feels like large format electrical tape. It came with a note. When you buy it you get an account. There are portions of their website that you can only view with an account and the note said there are updated instructions there. Haven't checked it out yet, it is 8:22 my time and haven't made dinner yet.

Now I only need a bike to install it in. Welder is supposed to show up tomorrow.

Edit sorry for potato quality not sure what happened there.

https://www.z125owners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20015&thumb=1
https://www.z125owners.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=20013&thumb=1
 

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Discussion starter · #9 ·
Some info from TOCE Performance who offers to re-flash stock ECUs (my initial email to them in BOLD):

Some confusion here as to closed vs open loop and I did not get all the info I was looking for... I plan to visit and ask some more questions. Info on stock AFR is interesting... 13.0 AFR is what I thought target should be looks like I was pretty close, at least according to these guys.

Still not clear when the bike is in open or closed loop. This is the biggest concern with running EFIE device. If stock ECU reverts to an open loop map at WOT then you are going to be running super lean cruising at high revs which is probably worst case scenario in terms of engine life.


1. What is the target AFR you set the computer for?

The target AFR changes slightly thought the RPM band. But this bike in particular runs about a 13.2-13.4 from idle most the way up then richens up to around 13-13.2 AFR at WOT just for the added "insurance" of keeping everything nice and cool. These Bikes being such a small single cylinder motor perform better in this range, where as a R1 for example likes it a bit richer at 100% throttle at high rpm like 12.8-12.9

2. You have options to delete or keep the O2 sensor. If kept, is the system running in a closed loop for AFR detection? If so is the system ALWAYS in a closed loop or are there spots (idle? WOT?) where the system reverts to Open loop? I don’t think the O2 sensor is a wideband so I am not clear how your ECU flash would work while retaining a narrow band O2.

We do have an option to delete the o2 sensor, and do recommend it especially if you are local to us, because we have created the map to run at our sea level so it will be spot on. The system is always in a closed loop, because the o2 sensor really dosen't exist to the bike anymore so it would have nothing to read off of. The ECU in the bike has different maps it runs off of for different instances, an example would be a cold start at idle it measures the intake temps vs engine temp and knows its cold so it has an enrichment map that it would use until operating temp is achieved. The o2 sensor is in fact a narrow band, so it uses voltage to calculate the "afr" and does not have nearly the capabilities that we are used to seeing with wideband o2 sensors. If you chose to leave the o2 sensor on, the factory sensor would work just the same as it did while it was stock, because we are re calibrating the binary in the ecu, the bike has no idea that its actually been flashed and just makes its "corrections" as it normally would on any other factory map. There is no harm leaving it on there, but we have noticed better gains with it off because stock the z125 runs extremely lean in the higher up rpms and will always be trying to correct its self back to that.

3. Along the same lines, would the reflash work on an otherwise stock bike without causing it to run overly rich?

Yes, the flash will work fine on an otherwise stock bike. We do at least recommend the exhaust, being that the map was created with the intention of using our exhaust. As previously stated the z125 runs shockingly lean especially at higher up rpms (14.3-14.6ish) so we felt as though it is a better option all the way around to richen it up quite a bit, not only for the gains that are achieved, but mostly because these bikes operate generally at wot or close to it and we don't want to see anyone melting down their pistons from really working these little motors, which i have read a lot about on the forums.

4. Do you bring back some of the advance that Kawi removed with their ECU update?

As i am not aware of what "advance" you are referring to, we did give it some more timing at wot to help get a little more horsepower out of these bikes. Our flashes are based off of the newest Kawasaki Binary, so with that we are putting the latest ecu "updated" maps into the bike, but with our fuel and ignition calibration. Our maps do have the cold start and idle fix that plagued the earlier model z125s so that would be a great feature for someone who dosen't have a brand new bike.

I work down the street from you guys and could stop in if that would be better.

Feel free to stop in anytime. Let us know if you wish to purchase anything from us before hand, so we can make sure we have it available for you when you get here.

I’m considering using an EFIE device that will intercept the signal from the O2 sensor and modulate it… this will allow me to shift Kawi’s stock map, but would only seem to work when the bike is running in a closed loop, and I cannot find any information as to when the bike is running in closed loop vs open loop.

You are welcome to use whatever device you wish to with our exhaust, i would not recommend this coupled with an ECU flash as it really wont net you anything. It would make sense that it will only work in closed loop otherwise its just going to endlessly keep trying to correct its self back to a factory setting while the device is trying to correct it back to your chosen value.

Love your undertail I want to pick one up, how do you mount the license plate? I assume you need to run an integrated tail light as well with that pipe?

The exhaust has a little threaded bracket welded onto the bottom of the muffler that our tag bracket screws right into. If you have seen a GROM or even a CBR600rr, it is the exact same setup on the z125. You do not NEED an integrated taillight, however if you wish to run rear turn signals, it would obviously be mandatory. Plenty of people in the motorcycle world ditch their signals and just use hand signals for turning. That is a matter of your preference and budget.

Does your intake include provisions to support the fairing (side fairings attach to stock air box which gets deleted with intake install)?

Unlike the GROM where the fairings are directly supported by the airbox, the z125 actually has its own mounts for the fairings to be held firmly and therefore the rod that is included in our GROM kits as well as many other brands simply isn't necessary for this bike.

If you have any other questions, you are more then welcome to email Ryan@toceperformance.com, or call and ask for Ryan and i will do my best to answer any other questions you may have. Thank you for your interest i hope to speak with you in the future. -Ryan
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Yeah... I think he typed it out quick and messed up a bit... this Ryan guy is their welder. I'm going to head in and talk to someone. Not ready to give up on the ECU reflash just yet need some more info.

I think deleting the 02 is the only way to make it work correctly and have the system run in OPEN loop the whole time.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
According to this guy at Toce the bikes run a separate richer map (ie choke mode) until engine is up to temp then switches to normal map. without the O2 present the bike is obviously in open loop... maybe it runs the richer map by default to prevent damage? I have no idea. Guess it doesn't matter in any event because it seems the bike richens up without the O2 sensor in.

But my understanding of how open loop works is that it just runs whatever settings are flashed to the ECU and it doesn't matter at all what the O2 sensor reads. If the bike is running closed loop the EFIE device will be able to shift stock AFR richer or leaner by intercepting and modulating voltage received from the O2 sensor and sent to the ECU. But in cases where the system switches to open loop you are stuck with what kawi gives you because in open loop the modulated signal from the O2 sensor is irrelevant... and if you have the O2 sensor in, which you would need in order to use the EFIE device, it means you aren't getting the richer "choke" or "crap there is no O2 sensor" map, and you get the factory setting, which according to Toce is north of 14.6 AFR. Combine that with an intake and a pipe and you lean it out even more.

So... to me this argues for full ECU flash or piggy back system... but... I gotta ask... what do your plugs look like?

Mine are grey. Grey and clean and lookin' lean. If you tell me you have a nice toasted marshmallow brown that's a good argument for skipping the EFIE and just removing the O2... although I'm too anal to have CEL lit up all the time. Maybe Fox's black wire trick.

This used to be so much cheaper and easier with jets and needle clips.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Yes Greg agree... the problem is that the fuel trims flashed to stock ECU are set too lean so with EFIE and O2 sensor you would end up richer across the board with the exception of WOT.

The exception to this would be if the stock ECU's "open loop" fuel trims were set dynamically... learned from 02 sensor and subject to change as the ECU learns the settings of your individual bike. I doubt this is the case and tend to believe that they are static... set from the factory and never change. This is admittedly just conjecture on my part. But it would seem that in the case of a malfunctioning O2 sensor they would want a static baseline to fall back on to prevent damage.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
My reservation, after a lot of googleing, is that in some vehicles closed loop trim seems to affect the open loop map, but in some vehicles it doesn't. Based on the forum post I linked to it looks like the Grom will adjust open loop fueling to long term closed loop trims. We don't know that the kawi ECU works the same way.

I'm going to swallow my pride and take stock exhaust to the muffler shop and have them weld on a full size bung and spacer so I can use my wideband and take some WOT AFRs, then install install EFIE and try to get general AFR around 13.4. Take the bike for a long ride then check WOT AFRs... if they change we know we're good... and no lean risk as my bike is still pretty much stock.

Kaw'ee I think your plugs look just a touch rich, but way better than mine with stock setup. I'll throw some pics up of mine later.

Greg I hope you are right about how the trims get added to baseline on open loop... will save people a lot of money if this works.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Greg- I checked this out this morning on my way to breakfast. I had prepped (2) 1/8" thick washers in case I needed to shim the sensor. I rode to breakfast with 1/8" total shim, then rode home with 1/4" total shim. AFR was unchanged. So I think the bike really does run 12:1 at WOT. Maybe not best for power... but I'd wager Kawi set it up this way to keep temps cooler. Just my guess.
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Need some help boys.

Got EFIE wired up today. Sorta.

There are 4 wires to O2. (2) white which I believe are HEATER circuit, a black which is positive signal (to ECU) and a grey which I THINK is just a ground. But it is a ground that goes back to the ECU.

I intercepted the Black (positive signal wire) with EFIE and set it up so voltage that passed through it was reduce by 0.250 volts. Used multimeter to test I verified that it worked on the bench and once in the bike. I tested the positive signal wire on both sides of the device and all was good.

Fired up the bike and it threw a code. I thought maybe the modified signal was out of range. AFR was whacky. Started high almost 15 then dropped to 12-13. I adjusted the device to drop signal by 0.150 volts and went for a ride. AFRs were mixed. Giving it more throttle the AFRs seemed lower. with the throttle cracked they were 14.2-15. This behavior was similar to running without the O2. Coming off throttle idle would end up around 13 afr then creep up to 14.6ish after maybe 15 seconds. Almost like the system was fighting with itself. Maybe idle is open loop and previously learned trims were coming into play.

After the ride I pulled the code - #67 for O2 heater element. Strange. I checked resistance through the 2 white wires (running to the O2) and got 18 ohms which per manual is in spec. I checked for voltage feeding the heater circuit at the O2 harness and had battery voltage. So I'm not sure why I'm getting heater circuit code. The manual says next step is check continuity to the ECU and if that is good then get a new ecu lol. I think it must just be a fluke code because I didn't mess with ECU or harness wiring. I tapped into O2 harness only.

I was reading 1.2 - 1.35 volts on the positive O2 signal wire before modification, this was giving me AFR readings around 14.2. This is my first time playing with narrow band O2s so I don't know what kind of voltage to expect. I'm measuring positive signal to ground. This may be an important detail. The manual, when testing the O2 positive signal wire voltage, has you connect to the grey wire (the mystery maybe a ground that definitely goes back to ECU) and not just any ground. Not sure if this matters. For more understanding of the ramblings in this paragraph crack open that manual to section 3-62. It is for diagnosing O2 sensor performance. It says connect positive lead of voltmeter to BLACK (check) and negative lead to GREY (I used chassis ground). It then goes on:

(Rich) DC 0.8 V or more
(Lean) DC 0.24 V or less

I'm getting 1.3 V at 14:1... so wtf?

Maybe the negative side actually has some positive voltage that would lower my reading when measuring across the black and grey wires. In any event a 0.250 V drop considering the range of 0.8 - 0.24 may be too much.

Thoughts?

Tonight I disconnected the ECU hoping overnight all fuel trims will be forgotten. Not sure if I should zero out the EFIE and ride it until the CEL clears or just ride for a while with the 0.150 offset.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Kaw'ee- All comments advice welcome. Thanks for the reply. I took pics of the install I'll throw em up later, but for your questions:

Yes, Grey to ECU, for sure 100%.

Yes, Reduced by 250mv, just like Grom guys, that's why I started with 250.

Thing about the code is I figured it would throw the bad O2 code, not the bad heater circuit. Unless maybe it threw both if I had key to ON position with no O2 present. I grounded the diag port and read the flashes. Is there a procedure to see if there is more than one stored code? I held it grounded and the flashing kept cycling through the 1 code, #67 bad O2 heater circuit.

I did get WOT. It was 12, just like before. Mostly. Saw 11.8, 11.9 as well for the first time. I believe creep may be to stored long term trims???

Your text below:
------------------------------------------------
[[I'm getting 1.3 V at 14:1... so wtf?]]
.
because the Gray wire is not going to the ECU
-------------------------------------------------------
Not sure what this means Grey and Black both go to ECU. Some other forums say sometimes talk about a bias voltage to the O2. This is basically arbitrary voltage the ECU runs through O2 signal circuit. O2 only generates voltage when it gets warm enough. ECU monitors the voltage whenever it is on. So in the beginning O2 is cold, and ECU only sees the bias voltage it is sending. Once O2 warms up the voltage it generates gets added to the bias voltage... the ECU sees the change and uses the difference between bias and read voltage to extrapolate the 0.1 - 0.9 V narrow band swing. This is I think why I am getting voltages over 1.2V on the narrow band signal wire. I will check voltage at the O2 harness connection to main harness without O2 sensor installed to try to confirm there is bias voltage coming into play. This could be why the manual wants you to test signal voltage across the gray and black wires, not just ground and black, so you automatically cancel out the bias voltage. Also I need to do full continuity tests from O2 harness through ECU connection just to make sure... I've had loose wires on this bike before I had to chase down.

Yes, Cut the BLACK signal wire to O2...White EFIE wire to O2 side, Green EFIE wire to ECU side.

Appreciate the vote of confidence. Anyone else have ideas? Sucks I need to go to work and cannot continue to tinker with this sucker.
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
OK gents minor update:

Greg- Thanks for link. I actually read that same article last night. Lots of good info in there.

Ando - Some type of standalone hardware to log to honestly I'm not sure what it would take... and I would only have AFRs, not throttle position or RPM so not sure how useful it would be.

So far today before work: I confirmed continuity from all (4) O2 sensor wires back to end of harness right before it plugs into ECU. I also confirmed that the ECU is sending voltage to O2 sensor (bias voltage) which is why I had signal on the voltmeter over 0.9 volts and why Kawi tells you to pull voltage across the pos and neg (black and grey) wires, and not just black to universal ground. When in doubt follow the directions I guess.

Today after work: I had ECU unplugged all day. I left EFIE connected but zeroed the offset (Hopefully this is actually zeroing and not the "I washed my bike today and it feels like I gained 15% HP). Fired the bike up and went for a ride. AFRs appear to be normal, not the crazy swings I had first time out with EFIE. I believe this process DID clear out the fuel trims. AFRs at idle, WOT, and above 8kish adjusted during the ride. Going to let it cool off then go out again. I really want that CEL to turn off, then I will clear fuel trims, set EFIE up for a conservative 0.100 V, and take a ride to check AFRs.

At this point I kind of hope that open loop is not effected by closed loop trims (although my guess from the first ride here is that they are). The bike actually runs pig rich at WOT. Beginning of my ride today I was seeing 11.5! It was getting closer to 12.0 as the short term trims were getting learned. Fear is that if the map gets shifted with the EFIE the already rich open loop numbers will get even richer.

The plus side, however, is that if the injectors are capable of pumping enough fuel to generate an 11.5:1 AFR then it's looking good that the stock ECU can handle intake and exhaust... but don't quote me on that yet, that'll be Phase III.

Also, the O2 heater circuit is energized when the key is on... If ECU is monitoring the heater circuit when key is on but bike is off, that could be what caused it to throw the code.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Greg - I thought about the different type of plug. No, we don't have titanium... Kawi gives the testing spec in voltage not ohms. Also, after just coming home from 2nd ride, I stripped some of the gray wire and measured voltage across grey to black with the bike running... saw oscillation between 0.1 and 0.9 V, so that one's put to bed... bias voltage confirmed! Bias is about 0.5 V, so the 0.250V correction with the EFIE shouldn't cause an out of range code. And yeah, wideband makes jetting way easier with carbs... especially the idle mixture screws. That's actually why I have this thing!

Shift light project looks really interesting!

Ando - LOL at communism being nice... in theory.

2nd run after "reset" in effort to clear CEL. AFRs are getting much closer now to my first measurement. The power off either clears the trims for sure or this is an insane case of placebo effect.

I'm getting a much better idea of how the ECU adjusts AFR based on throttle position and RPM combo... honestly it really isn't too bad. My only major gripe, after determining that there is basically zero risk of running lean (stock) at WOT is the lean surges you get occasionally around 5-6k RPM with throttle just cracked. More to come.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
OK boys we have proof of concept.

CEL was out today so I dialed up EFIE to a 0.125 V offset and went for a ride. This was without clearing any trims.

I noticed that cracked throttle cruising AFR dropped and I was seeing 13.7 and 13.8 for the first time. The AFRs swing around, stock is like 14.4 +/- 0.4. With this offset I got to maybe a 14.2 +/- 0.5. There are couple things coming into play here.

First, trims were not reset and the ECU most likely needs more time to re-learn. I only went for maybe a 6 mile ride.

Second, as narrow band O2s get farther away from an AFR of 14.7 accuracy drops of QUICKLY and a smaller change in voltage can correspond to a larger change in AFR. This doesn't worry me too much... AFR on carbs swings much wider than what I was seeing on my test ride today. The average AFR drops, but the "swing" could potentially grow with an aggressive offset.

So I went back to the garage, and with the bike still running, turned up the voltage offset while I watched the idle AFR drop. I got it down to around 13.3 and went for a ride. I needed an offset of 0.360 V to get there. Promptly threw code 33: bad O2 sensor. So I took it a bit too far. The offset must have sent voltage from the O2 out of range.

Rode home dialed the offset back to 0.250 and disconnected the battery. I'll take it out again tomorrow with no trims stored in ECU and see how it runs.

I will say this... even with just the 0.125 V offset... I was hunting around for lean surge on cracked throttle between 5-7 krpm and couldn't find it, so I'm optimistic. Still need to see how open loop is affected.

I have a zoom loop and a K&N filter for DIY intake coming, hoping to have both here by end of day Friday, and weather is looking good this weekend. So if the parts arrive on time the goal by Sunday night is to post up confirmation that stock ECU can handle exhaust and intake, and maybe even some tuning info on the EFIE.

One thing I think that may come into play, is that as we tune EFIE and get away from 14.7 AFR, because of the loss of accuracy, what may work on one bike may not work 100% on another, even with identical mods, due to accuracy tolerances of narrow band O2s. That's pure speculation on my part, but from what I read, and since we're pretty much asking the narrow band to shift lamda and almost act as a wideband, I think some variability between different O2 sensors can be expected.

Side note- apparently having the bike on (not running) with O2 disconnected will throw the O2 heater circuit code. Heater circuit is energized when key is turned on, and it is grounded through the ECU. I read that in some vehicles the ECU can "pulse" the ground to turn on or off the heater circuit. The code gets thrown if resistance (ohms) is out of spec, or if there is a short in the circuit, or if the circuit is open, which is the case when the O2 is disconnected.
 
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